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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hate it since the shifting problem is obviously a Polaris screwup, but I do not have the resources of Mrmike to go head to head with them. I have this 2011 in Costa Rica now so I can't take it to the dealer I bought it from and put up a fight.
I am going to the states in April and plan to buy a Dura Clutch for it before I tear up the transmition. I think I can bring it back in my checked bags.

My question is... Does anyone that has installed one that bought a clutch removal tool want to sell it since they are done with it? I can't see buying one for $40 for a 1 time use. I saw something on one thread about using allthread but would need more info to try that.
Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Can't see that QSC primary would be much help. Put in my specs and it does not appear to be available for the Diesel. From what I have read so far the driven clutch is as much the culprit as the drive clutch. It seems the 2014 diesel ranger has not had the shifting issues I would think that would e cheaper than the Dura Clutch.

Any advice is VERY welcome.
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I do not have any resources, and the dealer was no real help.

I called the CEO's house (Scott Wine) at 3am one morning, told his wife I was pissed off, and that Scott needed to contact me ASAP.

This completely freaked her and him out, and I got a call from Scott Wine within 24 hours.

They stalled on doing anything for several days, until I told them I had enough.

I set up a web site called polaris-ceo-scott-wine.com, telling the story of how I got ripped off by this PoS company.

From this, I was able to acquire IP addresses of several Minneapolis charities that were trying to contact Scott Wine and/or Polaris.

After giving Polaris ample time to deal with my issue in a respectful manner, I started emailing these charities, telling them what a PoS Scott Wine was, and how hypocritical it was for him to boost his public image by donating to a charity while he was ripping me off.

I got his home address as well, and was prepared to start sending postal mail to each and every one of his neighbors, telling them what a prick their neighbor was.

After I did this to Scott Wine, I got the names and email addresses of all the head executives at Polaris from the Polaris website. With a little research, I was able to get many of their home addresses and phone numbers as well.

I sent a mass email to the Polaris execs, telling them what I had begun doing to Scott, and how I was going to proceed to go down my list of names and do the same thing to each and every one of them, and that I would not stop until their names were ruined.

So suddenly, after months of getting nowhere dealing with this company, I had them calling me, practically begging me to pick up the phone or answer my emails.

I gave them a taste of their own medicine, and refused to answer their calls.

Completely unsolicited, they sent me a check, and I no longer am a Polaris owner.

Personal, public shaming is the apparently the only thing these sociopaths can understand.

Good luck.
 

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Maybe you ought to post the information you dug up, so when other members are ignored when trying to resolve legitimate issues, they have a place to start.
 

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Can't see that QSC primary would be much help. Put in my specs and it does not appear to be available for the Diesel. From what I have read so far the driven clutch is as much the culprit as the drive clutch. It seems the 2014 diesel ranger has not had the shifting issues I would think that would e cheaper than the Dura Clutch.

Any advice is VERY welcome.
Thanks
Not trying to sell you a QSC clutch either. Asking what your problems are. You said it has shifting issues. More specific please? Hard to shift gears when running, all the time, etc? Jammed in gear when stopped? Can't offer any help without details of the issue. Trying to keep $1500 in your pocket if possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ridinagain

Same issues as all the rest of the shifting problems with 2011 Diesel Rangers. Works fine until it warms up then it will not shift at all with the engine running. Shut it off and it works like a champ. Since it is street legal here if I can't find a pull thru place to park I have to back out into traffic shut it off shift and start it back up. NOT FUN

mrmike Thank you for filling in the blanks. I hope to avoid the bad tranny thanks to you. I only shift with the engine off until I get a fix for this. I still plan to talk to my dealer being in Costa Rica sort of ties my hands.

Thanks for sharing mike.
 

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I would check clutch alignment once warmed up. Could be a ventilation issue getting the clutches hot and the bushings in the primary stick keeping it from releasing the belt completely. If it's a heat issue no clutching is going to fix it. Adding a fan to push air through the housings to cool the clutches like the desert guys do could help. You could remove the outer cover and go drive it for a while and see if it still does it. That would tell you if it's heat related. If it still does, would make inspecting it quick and easy before it cools off and goes away.
 

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I had a hard shifting issue and spent a lot of money into a solution and a lot of time into learning why the clutch was functioning the way it was.

The issue with the clutch has to do mainly with the narrow rpm band that Polaris is trying to work with.


I'm going to copy and paste a couple notes I'd written on another site. I have the first Diesel Duraclutch that was sold to the public and the first note I'm posting was before I was allowed to say I had the clutch. I don't guess I was really prevented from saying I had the clutch, the owner just asked me to not discuss it at the time!


Not so much the spring as much as the actual design. Polaris is trying to do the best they can with the equipment they have. The diesel doesn't have the rpm range that the gas engine does and has a much different powerband than the gas engine. For example the diesel governs out at 3850 rpm and makes good power between 1400 rpm through at least 3600 rpm. The diesel clutch tries to take advantage of this as best it can and engage at around 1200-1300 rpm, even though the engine idles at around 1050 rpm.

I may be a bit off but the 800 gas engine can rev to at least 7000 rpm and makes power from maybe 2000 rpm through 6500 rpm. It idles at around the same 1050 rpm but the clutch doesn't engage until around 1800-2000 rpm (sorry if I'm off on this, I've only been in a gas Ranger once).

This is a huge difference in operating limits. The diesel has to go from idle to engagement in about 200 rpm while the gas has a few hundred rpm more to engage simply because it has a different powerband.

Polaris is making the clutch tolerances between idle and engagement as close as possible to try to match the powerband of the diesel and at least with the 2011, it's a little close.



The Polaris update for the 2011 clutch fixes this somewhat in that it raises engagement rpm to about 1500 rpm. The update comes with a new primary spring and a shim for the secondary. It's a little aggravating in that you don't get going as quickly as you did with the old setup, but at least you can shift now.

Changing to a 2012 clutch is a possibility, however be aware that the tolerances here are very close as well. I've had both the 2011, 2011 updated and 2012 diesel clutches. The 2012 clutch works but I do have a hard shifting issue with it as well. My alignment between primary and secondary is perfect, however, after riding for a while and everything gets hot I get a hard shifting issue. It's not as bad as the 2011 hard shift, but still it's there.

The hard shift when hot took a while to figure out and I really didn't have much of a clue as to the cause until I talked to a few people and learned how the belts were made. I thought the reason was due to viscosity changes with the transmission lubricant when hot causing the viscosity to drop and there not being as much internal drag within the transmission. However, the real cause appears to be that the belt is expanding when getting fully warmed up and when it warms up I get a hard shift. Letting the belt cool will result in much better shifting. What is happening is drag on the primary clutch is causing the belt to continue to try to turn the secondary clutch. Since there's tension on the secondary, the secondary is trying to turn the internal gears. When you're trying to shift, the gears are meshed together under enough pressure that you can't shift.

Ever lean hard into a closed door and try to turn the door knob? Hard to turn the knob isn't it, same thing is happening here.

I wish I could get the 2012 clutch tuned a little better and sacrifice a little engagement rpm to eliminate the hot hard shift, however I'm going to try a couple other things first.

One other thing to consider with the 2012 clutch is that it has a roller center bearing which is a known failure point.



You could try the 2011 update, it's very easy to install and is definitely cheaper than the 2012 clutch. The part number is 2878856 and includes a new primary spring and a secondary spacer. I think I paid around $30 for mine and installed it in an evening. The 1500 rpm engagement is different, but shifting is much better.





Here is the second note:

Some background on my setup and issues with previous clutches. My Diesel is a 2011 and its original clutch was a unit similar to the 2009 and prior (I think) clutches. There is no center roller bearing and it's overall a simple reliable clutch with no engine braking. However, the 2011 with this clutch has some issues with hard shifting due to a number of factors. Basically since the diesel engine has a limited rpm range, Polaris had to do as much as they could with the range they had. Factory idle is approx. 1050 rpm and it governs out at around 3850 rpm. To make the most of this rpm range, Polaris tried to have the clutch engage as fast as possible and really cut back on clearances between the primary clutch sheaves and belt. This made some factory units have hard to impossible shifting due to clutch drag.

Polaris had a service bulletin for hard shifting and their fix for the 2011 clutch was a cheap (about $40), but effective, primary spring and secondary shim. The primary spring raised engagement rpm slightly and the secondary shim spread the secondary apart slightly. The clutch would now engage at around 1500 rpm instead of the previous 1250 rpm.

The 2012 and up Diesels use a version of the standard Polaris clutch with a roller center bearing. I bought a clutch like this and wasn't really satisfied it. Mostly I was unsatisfied because I didn't get the performance I expected and I paid for an entire 2012+ clutch. My engagement rpm was around 1250-1350 rpm but I still had some drag that produced hard shifting. I found that my clutches were slightly misaligned from the factory and shimmed it as close as I could get. This improved the drag issue but never did totally resolve it. At this point the drag was better than the original 2011 clutch but not quite as good as the modified 2011 clutch. My 2012 clutch had a particular issue where the clearances were so tight that when the belt was cold, shifting was perfect and all measurements with feeler gauges were well within spec. However, after getting the belt warm, it would expand slightly and those good clearances were no longer good, resulting in drag. Because of this and especially due to cost, I thought the modified 2011 clutch was the best bang for the buck.

Both the 2011 clutch and the 2012+ clutches do not have engine braking and have the same clutch feel as any other Polaris I've ridden. In this case I'm talking about the jerky engagement that comes from the pulley acting as both a clutch and a transmission. Easing into the throttle causes a jerky start due to the belt slipping and the best way I've read to overcome this was just to stab the throttle slightly to cause the pulley sheaves to come together and cut back on slippage.



Now to the good part.... as I'd mentioned earlier I received the Duraclutch this week. I was able to install it today and take it on a ride. I can honestly say, so far, that it has performed flawlessly and is everything is is promised to be. It is the absolute best modification I've made to my Ranger.

The best thing about the Duraclutch is that it separates the clutching action from the pulleys. It lets the pulleys act as a CVT and uses twin centrifugal clutches for clutching. The belt is constantly in tension and is constantly pinched by the pulleys. The centrifugal clutches are very smooth in engagement and since the belt is already pinched, starting the Ranger is much more smooth in all conditions. There is also no drag and no hard shifting with this clutch, even after riding hard and getting everything warmed up fully.

An additional bonus that I had never experienced was engine braking. I'm not able to compare it to the standard Polaris EBS since I've never owned one, I can say that the Duraclutch braking is very effective, even with a diesel. I would say a gas engine with the Duraclutch would perform much better in braking! The thought of an exhaust brake did cross my mind, but the valve springs are probably pretty light and I would be afraid of floating an exhaust valve during braking.

The Duraclutch uses a standard Polaris belt and fits under the regular CVT cover. The belt is not the same belt the stock Diesel clutches use, but is a common belt used on a much more powerful machine.








Now after having the Duraclutch for almost a year. I can say the performance is still the same. Its the best thing I've done to my Ranger. It is always smooth to engage, no jerky starts and no belt burning. You don't have the transition time where the factory clutch is transitioning from being a clutch to a transmission. With the duraclutch, the clutch only acts as a clutch and the belt only has to function as a transmission. The belt stays continually pinched and pinched good.

Separating the clutching action and the transmission action is the only way you can get the performance you want with the limited rpm range of the Diesel.



I can still get into a situation every once in a while where hard shifting will occur. It's due to the way the Duraclutch does engine braking.

Engine braking on the Duraclutch is far superior to the factory Polaris braking system and uses a one way bearing that acts on the sheave of the clutch. The Polaris system lets the clutch open up and the belt fall onto a one way roller bearing. This means the Polaris method has braking acting on the bottom of the belt where it doesn't have too good of a grip. The Duraclutch, since it acts on the sheave, will brake through the same part of the belt that is used to drive the machine (the sides of the belt).

This can affect shifting for instance when the machine rolls backward a bit after stopping. It's sort of like putting an automatic transmission in park on a hill without setting the parking brake.

The solution is a behavioral one, be sure to put the parking brake on before letting off the regular service brakes or hit the brake before the machine has a chance to roll back a bit (I usually don't even think when I do this now).

If you do get it bound up this way, just give the machine a little fuel to drive it forward or reverse enough to unload the transmission and allow shifting. I do this a time or two every time I ride.

Even with this quirk, the Duraclutch is by far better than the factory clutch could ever be!


Sorry so long, hope this helps!
 

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That's great info. I don't see any diesels in my shop ever so I'm not familiar with them at all. Although I've had several diesel trucks and am familiar with the limited RPM range, etc. And 20+ years of clutching work on snowmobiles, ATVs and SxS I can understand the low RPM problems with the design. Heat is a huge problem in any version of CVT system. I would still try a fan to vent the clutch housing better before spending $1500 on clutches, but I'm cheap that way on most things. Don't believe in spending more money that is needed to get the job done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
WOW Dave!!

Thanks for a huge amount of info. I put the "Shift Enhancement Kit" in a couple of months ago(new spring and spacer) . It seemed better for a couple of days maybe just wishful thinking but now it is about the same. It does seem worse moving from reverse to forward. I only get to the US about every 3 months or so so I really need to find a good fix for the next trip.

I have not read of any problems with the 2013 or 2014 diesels. If it will fit mine I wonder if that clutch would be the best choice or a DuraClutch? All of this is well past my knowledge level. I would rather spend the money on the right thing than screw up my transmission and have to get it trucked to the capital city 4 hours away to the only dealer.

From the way you talk the best thing for me to do is get the Dura Clutch and not have to worry any more.

Thanks for all the info
Bill
 

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Since the problem seems to be largely caused by the heating and expanding of the belt, I wonder if a better belt like a Gates G-Force would help. I've heard they are very good for reducing or eliminating the grabby starts on the gas Rangers.

I understand the difficulty in designing a CVT to work with the limited RPM range of a diesel, but I have a Kioti Mechron that works perfectly. It has a 3 cyl diesel that only revs to 3000 rpm. It's engages smoothly and disengages completely (no hard shifting). One of the reasons I bought it was how well it drives, and I did test drive a new 2014 Polaris diesel at the time. The Polaris jerked every time it engaged, the Kioti is smooth like an automatic car. I just bought a 2011 Ranger diesel, being delivered tomorrow, fully expecting to have to sort out the clutch issues.

Doesn't the primary clutch on the Ranger diesel spin at almost twice the engine rpm? If that's the case then the limited rpm range shouldn't be an issue. I know it's not direct coupled, but I don't know what the ratio is. The Kioti clutch is bolted directly to the flywheel, as are the John deere diesel Gators.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for the input Intercetpor.

I hope someone else can answer those questions as I do not know the layout of the drive clutch.

You got me what is a Kioti Mechron?
 

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You got me what is a Kioti Mechron?
Kioti (coyote) is a line of tractors made in Korea by Daedong, the Mechron is a Ranger-like UTV. The chassis and drive train is a damn near exact copy of a 2005-08 Ranger, but with a diesel engine. It's a great machine, in my opinion the quality exceeds that of a Polaris in many ways.

My 2011 Ranger Diesel was delivered and I got to drive it or the first time today. It doesn't drive nearly as nice as the Mechron but it's not terrible. My wife drove it and she said it just feels like a Ranger. It idles at 1050 and the clutch engages at 1250 with the normal Polaris jerk. I didn't run it long enough to get it really hot and see if it has the shifting problem. Something has me a bit confused though. It has the sticker under the hood indicating that the service bulletin for the clutch (R-12-02) has been completed. According to what DaveB posted that should raise the engagement up to around 1500, but mine comes in right at 1250. Maybe someone changed it back? I pulled the clutch cover just out of curiosity. The primary spring is black, #041996/225. It has a stock belt #3211135 which has worn through the base of the plastic housing right above the drive shaft.
 

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I checked the rpm on my clutch today. With the engine at 3850 the clutch is spinning 4480 rpm. The Dirt Trax review of the 2011 diesel says the clutch spins "roughly double the rpm of the engine", I'm not sure how they came up with that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
My 2011 clutch also engages at around 1280. I put that spring and spacer in mine a few months ago and I still have the problem.

When I went to my dealer and asked what was being done about this the service manager told me there had been a recall (his words). It had expired so I would have to pay for it out of my pocket. So I bought it and a service manual since I have never worked on one before. I did not have a clutch removal tool so I had to do the drive clutch spring in place. The driven clutch spacer was no problem.

I think the thing that ticks me off the most is that the best option to fix this is the Dura Clutch (as mrmike pointed out) is produced by a Polaris founder family member that still has ties to them. I know that a lot of people have bought one, that did not have shift problems because of performance and engine braking. That makes me feel a little better about it.
 

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Very odd that my 2011 shift update would engage at around 1500 rpm and your alls don't!

You're right, the cost of the duraclutch is high but it was the only thing that worked on my machine.

I'll have to look at the factory service manual to get the exact ratio but as you've seen the transmission ratio is nowhere near 2:1 as has been reported.

Also, I should say, I do have a cooling fan for my cvt. It didn't help shifting at all.
You can't keep it cool enough to prevent the belt expanding slightly. Another manufacturer may be better but I never tried that, my gut feeling is that it wouldn't help.

Sorry for the short post, I'm on a phone.
 

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My 2011 did not have any problems but I wanted to try the Gates G-Force belt to see if it engages any smoother. It may be a little bit less grabby, but barely noticeable if at all. Unfortunately I also now have the hard shifting problem. I measured the old belt and it's worn .020" under spec which is probably the only reason it wasn't giving me problems. I can't see why re-shimming the primary to increase belt to sheave clearance (remove shim beneath spider) wouldn't completely solve the problem without changing the engagement RPM. Any thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I have really worked mine hard this last 2 weeks. The dry season is here so lots of tree trimming and dragging limbs up a steep hill to the burn pile. The tranny really never got warmed up in the short runs but the belt i am sure worked hard. After all that I drove to town twice( 8 miles on a gravel road at 30 MPH) and I have had no shift problems at all. I am a little stumped by this. I think I may still get a Dura Clutch for the engine braking ( very hilly here) but the kit new spring and spacer all of a sudden seem to be working. Maybe a little belt wear helped the problem?:confused:
 

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Maybe a little belt wear helped the problem?:confused:
I wouldn't doubt it. Mine has been giving me lots of problems since I put the new belt on. I'm going to put the old belt back on until I have time to take the clutch apart and shim it. I too will probably end up getting the Duraclutch, but I need to put some more hours on the Ranger and make sure I'm going to keep it before I spend the money.
 
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